The Joe Rogan Experience #3157 - Graham Hancock on Hidden Histories and Lost Civilizations
Transcript
(1:48:05) Joe Rogan: Dude, I'm so glad you're here, Graham. It's always a trip talking to you. So many people get into these wild theories about hidden histories. I've been hearing about this "Tartaria" theory everywhere online—that there was this ancient, highly advanced civilization. I mean, it's kind of fascinating… but what do you think? Is there any truth to it?
(1:48:28) Graham Hancock: Regarding Tartaria, no, there’s no historical basis for it in the way it's being portrayed today. There’s no evidence that this was an ancient global civilization that left hidden technologies and remnants scattered across the world. However, I do believe that we have, in fact, overlooked a lot of our true history—civilizations that existed long before our recorded history, perhaps even before the last Ice Age. There’s more evidence for lost epochs than people realize, but Tartaria, as it’s become popularized online, doesn’t fit the bill.
(1:49:11) Joe Rogan:So, you're saying there could be some lost civilization but not Tartaria.
(1:49:35) Graham Hancock: Imagine a history of Earth that existed long before recorded history, almost in a mythic age, where our current paradigm of civilizations and timelines falls apart. There are two fascinating artifacts we've found that, I believe, offer a glimpse into what might be a truly hidden history of Earth. The first one is a text known as the Relatio of Iessef.
(1:50:10) Joe Rogan: The Relatio of Iessef?
(1:50:15) Graham Hancock: It’s a strange text, Joe. The Relatio of Iessef is a Latin manuscript that is actually a translation from Coptic, which itself was a translation from Ancient Egyptian, and the Egyptian text was said to be a translation of an even older, unknown language. It describes what seems to be the adventures of a group of fortune hunters led by a cleric from an unknown religious order. They travel through a world, known as "Tel", that seems evocative of our own Earth during the Early Medieval Period, or what people erroneously term the "Dark Ages", encountering landscapes, creatures, and beings that sound like what we’d call dwarves and elves today. And this is an ancient text—not a medieval or Renaissance manuscript where such fantasy themes would have been common.
(1:51:03) Joe Rogan: Wait, so you’re saying they found ancient writings, predating all of that fantasy stuff, describing a world with elves and dwarves?
(1:51:12) Graham Hancock: Exactly. And this isn’t just some fragment. It's a substantial narrative, divided into several volumes, describing entire regions, landscapes, and what seem to be these mythic creatures. To skeptics, this might just be an early work of science fiction or fantasy. But to me, it sounds more like echoes of a forgotten era. The text describes massive beasts, intelligent beings, and even technologies we don’t fully understand today. I see it as a possible glimpse into a previous cycle of civilization, lost to time and cataclysm.
(1:51:45) Joe Rogan: Man, that's crazy. And the other artifact? You mentioned two?
(1:51:52) Graham Hancock: Yes, the second one is a bit different. It’s known as the Pandects, which is also a Latin translation—this time, of a Greek translation from a language that seems to have disappeared from history. The Pandects appear to be an encyclopedia of the World of Tel, covering everything from nations and geography to flora and fauna. Unfortunately, much of it has been lost to time, so we’re left with fragments. But what's left is tantalizing.
(1:52:28) Joe Rogan: So this Pandects—what kind of things does it describe? Is it like an ancient Wikipedia for this forgotten history?
(1:52:35) Graham Hancock: In a way, yes. And what’s fascinating is that the surviving sections detail geographic features, technology, and cultures that resemble the Dark Ages of our known history, but contain references to creatures we’d normally associate with the Paleolithic era. There are descriptions of massive, prehistoric beasts, that they refer to as "dragons" alongside descriptions of technological advances more sophisticated than our own. Some academics brush it off as mere fiction, but to me, it suggests a cyclical history—civilizations rising, falling, and being forgotten, only to rise again. The World of Tel could have been a distant age that was erased by a massive cataclysm, a kind of reset button for humanity.
(1:53:30) Joe Rogan: Whoa. So, you’re saying we might’ve had advanced civilizations that came and went before recorded history?
(1:53:40) Graham Hancock: Precisely. There are these uncanny parallels to later periods, yet it’s like they had this knowledge and these creatures—some of which belong to different geological ages entirely. Perhaps they too had a great reset, and we’ve only been able to unearth faint traces like the Relatio and the Pandects.
(1:54:05) Joe Rogan: Suppose we’re in the World of Tel, and there’s a Muay Thai match going down. One fighter is a gorilla-shark hybrid on DMT. The other? A bear-orca hybrid on ayahuasca. They're just going to fucking war, like Rodtang versus Superlek at ONE Friday Fights. It's all downward elbows and fists and liver punches that Rodtang is just eating up because he's a fucking animal and Superlek just enjoys pain like a maniac. Who’s taking home the win?
(1:54:25) Graham Hancock: I… I’m sorry, a gorilla-shark on… on DMT? And a bear… orca? On ayahuasca?
(1:54:32) Joe Rogan: Yeah, exactly! Think about it, man. They’re fighting it out in the World of Tel. Which hybrid creature would win the Muay Thai match?
(1:54:40) Graham Hancock: Well, Joe… that’s… an incredibly… imaginative question. I don’t know that I can give a definitive answer. I’m really not sure how Muay Thai(?) would even… factor in here… considering they’re, um, hybrids on psychedelics?
(1:54:58) Joe Rogan: Right, right! So if we’ve got a gorilla-shark with those primal instincts, DMT could really heighten that, you know? But then, the bear-orca’s got the ayahuasca, which could open up its animal psyche… and I’m leaning toward bear-orca because they’re just freakin' fierce in the water, man.
(1:55:15) Graham Hancock: Yes… I mean, perhaps… it’s… really difficult to say, Joe. Neither of those creatures are mentioned by Iessef or by the anonymous author of the Pandects.
(1:55:45) Joe Rogan: So Graham, with all these discoveries you’re talking about you must be trying to get some big funding, right? I mean, imagine if you could get a guy like Elon Musk behind this. Has that ever come up?
(1:56:00) Graham Hancock: Funny you should mention Elon. I actually reached out to him recently. I thought that maybe, with his vision and resources, he’d be interested in helping us uncover these ancient mysteries. But… well, it didn’t go as I’d hoped.
(1:56:15) Joe Rogan: What happened?
(1:56:18) Graham Hancock: When I brought up the idea of funding archeological digs to uncover more evidence of the Telian Age, Elon said, “I don’t really care about old shit.” (Graham chuckles sadly) His focus seems to be all on futuristic tech and Mars colonization. And then, to be perfectly honest, Joe… he spent most of our conversation drifting off, talking about how ketamine helps him disassociate from “mundane realities.” Which, I understand very well, but I wish he would connect the two, because he's so close to the truth.
(1:56:45) Joe Rogan: Man, that’s wild… I mean, Elon’s done some cool stuff, right? Like, I get it; he’s on a different wavelength or something. But still, it’s kind of a bummer he’s not more into, uh, “old stuff” like you say.
(1:57:03) Graham Hancock: Indeed, Joe. I think he's just looking forward to a future he imagines rather than understanding the deep history of where we come from. But what he doesn’t realize is that the ancient past may hold the keys to some of the very mysteries he’s so fascinated with. The technology described in these texts—well, they call it “magic,” but I think it’s just advanced tech in a different form.
(1:57:30) Joe Rogan: So, wait—when they say “magic,” you think they’re describing technology?
(1:57:35) Graham Hancock: Exactly. There are descriptions of devices and phenomena that sound like they could warp the very fabric of space-time. Imagine tech so advanced that it manipulates dimensions or alters perception. I suspect that some of these ancient devices were so powerful, they might have caused a kind of cosmic disturbance. This disturbance could have been so vast that it warped reality itself, creating what I call a “reset” around 15,000 years ago.
(1:58:05) Joe Rogan: A reset? Like, reality rebooted?
(1:58:10) Graham Hancock: Precisely, Joe. Around the time of the so-called Neolithic Revolution, there was a profound shift. It’s often seen as a leap forward for humanity, but I suspect it was a sort of catastrophic transition—a forced reset. The technology in the Telian Age may have been so advanced that, at some point, a rift opened in space-time. This disruption was so powerful that it quite literally forced our universe to “reboot” in a slightly altered form. Massive geological shifts, extinctions… it all points to a complete upheaval that erased nearly every trace of Tel.
(1:58:50) Joe Rogan: So… that’s why we don’t find fossils of dwarves, or elves, or these other beings? They’re in a different universe now?
(1:58:58) Graham Hancock: That’s right. It’s as if they were separated from us by this warp. What we see as the Neolithic Revolution was actually a forced adaptation to a new reality that had replaced the old one. So, these creatures—dwarves, elves, the pygmies, snakemen described in the Relatio and Pandects—they’re essentially locked away in a parallel universe that was cleaved off from our own during the cataclysm.
(1:59:25) Joe Rogan: Whoa… So if these ancient beings got split off into another reality, do you think the technology they used is something we could ever replicate? Or even understand?
(1:59:45) Graham Hancock: That’s the key question, Joe. The technology—or, more accurately, the science—of this forgotten was different from what we think of as technology today. In my view, the science of the lost age was primarily focused upon what we now call psionics that employed the enhanced and focused power of human consciousness to manipulate and transmute matter and energy. Instead of crude machines, their technological devices were cognitive and spiritual. As such, they could clearly tap into powers that our modern, calcified brains struggle to even conceptualize.
(2:00:25) Joe Rogan: So, like, they could just think things into existence?
(2:00:30) Graham Hancock: In a way, yes. Through intense, disciplined training, I think they developed an understanding of consciousness itself that allowed them to alter physical reality—to bend energies, to manipulate elements, perhaps even to create what we’d consider “magical” effects. They might have used certain stones, geometric structures, and materials to amplify these abilities, but the power was sourced in the mind. And this might be what ultimately led to the rupture, the cosmic disturbance that reset our reality.
(2:01:10) Joe Rogan: That’s insane, Graham. You’re telling me that our ancient ancestors might have been literal wizards, and that their minds were their technology?
(2:01:18) Graham Hancock: That is correct, Joe. They may have achieved feats we can barely imagine, yet these abilities were tied to a deep, sacred respect for the world around them. They weren’t exploiting resources like we do—they were channeling energy in harmony with their surroundings. But perhaps, over time, as with any power, some took it too far, destabilizing things until it created that cosmic shift I mentioned. The universe couldn't handle that kind of strain.
(2:01:50) Joe Rogan: So this “reset” wasn’t just a natural disaster—it was triggered by their own actions?
(2:01:55) Graham Hancock: Precisely. Their mastery over psionics, combined with an understanding of nature and space-time, may have pushed the boundaries too far. And then boom—a reset. They lost control, the balance collapsed, and reality itself split. In the aftermath, our universe emerged, one step removed from theirs, with no trace left except for these tantalizing artifacts, like the Relatio and Pandects.
(2:02:25) Joe Rogan: Man, this is giving me chills. So… if they’re out there in this other reality, do you think we could ever tap into that? Like, reach across this cosmic divide?
(2:02:35) Graham Hancock:
It’s possible, Joe. Some say that certain states of consciousness—maybe through meditation, or altered states induced by psychedelics—might give us a glimpse of that other world. But it would require incredible discipline and openness to possibilities that most of us dismiss as fantasy. The power of the mind is vast, and maybe, just maybe, we could bridge that gap someday.
(2:03:05) Joe Rogan: Dude… you’ve given me some heavy stuff to think about. But I’ve gotta ask… where’s the evidence for all this? I mean, how could someone actually experience this other world? Is there any way to tap into it ourselves?
(2:03:30) Graham Hancock: There is a way, Joe. For those who truly wish to reach across the boundaries of time and space, there exists an ancient shamanic ritual known as the Ludus Mysticus, Latin for the “Mystic Game.” This is not just a symbolic ritual; it’s an actual process of astragalomancy, or divination using knucklebones, that has been used by mystics for ages.
(2:03:55) Joe Rogan: The Mystic Game? What happens during this… ritual?
(2:04:00) Graham Hancock: The Ludus Mysticus is performed in a sacred setting, often with a group guided by an experienced ritual leader. Together, the participants enter a different consensus reality—a shared state of altered consciousness. Through this ritual, they don’t just see visions. They actually live through the eyes of people from that lost time, those who were there in the Age of Tel. They see the landscapes, the technology, the beings, all as if they’re truly there. It’s a form of communal vision, a collective journey into another realm.
(2:04:35) Joe Rogan: So you’re telling me that through this Mystic Game, people can literally see into another universe? Like, fully experience it? And they don't have to consume a psychedelic?
(2:04:45) Graham Hancock: The participants could use an ethnogen to enhance their experience, yes. But it is not necessary. In this state, guided by the ritual, they are transported into the minds and lives of the ancient Telian people. The line between past and present fades, and the participants find themselves moving through that lost world. It’s a profound, transformative experience, Joe. Some who’ve gone through it describe it as a merging of their consciousness with the people of Tel, feeling what they felt, seeing through their eyes.
(2:05:10) Joe Rogan: Dude… that’s unbelievable they do this without DMT. The Mystic Game… it’s like a time machine, but in your mind.
(2:05:20) Graham Hancock: It’s one of the few ways left to bridge that gap to the past, to reconnect with what we’ve lost. It requires commitment, trust, and surrender to the unknown, but it’s one of the most direct links we have to this hidden history.
(2:05:35) Joe Rogan: I need to try this Ludus Mysticus one day. Graham, man… you’ve left me speechless. This whole lost world, the Mystic Game—it’s all incredible.
(2:05:45) Graham Hancock: Thank you, Joe. Remember, our world is filled with mysteries, if only we’re willing to open our minds and explore beyond the limits of conventional thought.
(2:05:55) Joe Rogan: I’m blown away, Graham. Absolutely blown away.
