Sienna Khan

https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBYcritics/comments/c0c6qa/the_racism_subplot_of_rwby_analysis_comparison/
You want to know what I love about this character short? Yes it's about Adam, but it's also just as much about Sienna, and about how guilty she actually is as a character.
You see I don't think you noticed through the transitions, but this whole trailer was about Sienna essentially being the enabling motivator for a psychopath, which makes it all the more poetic when he finally fucking kills her in volume 5, even the lyrics that play are reminiscent of it.
"Surrounded by weaklings, Pathetic and oppressed. Satisfied to gnaw on scraps, afraid to leave the nest. You'll see, I'm their hero, I'll be lionized. I have the strength to do what's needed, unify our people, with no compromise. Champion the truth, until they recognize, lead them to salvation, and regain our lives. Behold your flaccid leaders, too weak to take the prize, replace them with a warrior, it's time to mobilize. Dispose the feeble cowards, heed this battle cry. Vengeance on the Human filth, the time is now we'll rise. I'm here, I'm your savior, I'll be lionized, I am the path to reclamation, this world will have no peace, til our dream's realized, no mercy, no compassion. Our fate's justified, time to turn the tables on who's tyrannized."
Keep these lyrics in mind as Adam assassinates her to use her as a Martyr for their new extremities, her careless brash actions of rebellion and egomania (seriously why does she need a fucking gigantic ass throne room) enabled a psychopath and she contented to keeping Adam around as a rabid guard dog till it bit her in the ass, and now she's dead, raised as a martyr and a psychopath is her legacy.
Ones demise, is always ones own making... And far to often, the legacy's we leave behind, are not the ones we intended.
Lionized is interesting in that it makes Adam's goal similar to Ruby's. He wants to be a hero, as defined by fighting for what is right and defend those who can't protect themselves. Except here with Adam, what's right is to turn the table on who's oppressed, and he actually looks down on the people needing his protection.
The lyrics are basically what Adam SHOULD'VE been. Or at least showed a few qualities of what was mentioned (Also, thanks for quoting ma' boy Ansem, Seeker of Darkness). The thing with Adam is, he's the ONE character a lot of us WANT to like. He's got the looks and skills of a badass, but that doesn't sell the character to the audience. A story and a personality we can get behind is what gets us to like a character. Adam as the setup to be a very liked character with him being the leader of the White Fang. To me he could work like Vergil/Cyclops. Like imagine him with the slick callousness of Vergil, but with the smarts and leadership of Cyclops (Modern). And probably add some of Slade's (Teen Titans) maliciousness and fear factor. The song Lionized talks about a charismatic idealistic leader who will lead the Faunus to triumph I would love to see that character. This basically applies too all of the songs. The songs describe a story far superior to the one we actually see.
At least Blake's arc is finally over after 6 years. I’m impressed by how Miles and Kerry made a filler arc that lasted 6 years.Blake went from interesting to annoying. The White Fang did not have any narrative weight at all and wasn't introduced properly during this whole time. It’s just there, like it was just an excuse to add Blake to the main story. Not only that, but her arc was very heavy-handed and retconned, despite Miles and Kerry saying that Blake is the most difficult character to write. Oh, and Faunus discrimination is non existent.
If Sienna had this chaotic good/lawful evil mentality, why Blake went to Beacon instead of Mistral with Sienna to talk about Adam’s behavior? Blake had no reason to be at Beacon if she still considered herself a member of the White Fang and had similar ideals to Sienna. She knew how the organization works, so the most logical thing for Blake to do is going to the WF HQ to report Adam. And I also think the whole going back to Menagerie is misplaced in the story. It should have happened before Volume 1.
What was Sienna doing this whole time with the organization? We only saw Adam's faction (that was working for Cinder and therefore has nothing to do with the Faunus narrative. Sienna called him out on that.), and the Adam character short showed us things that didn't go anywhere. They mentioned many times the SDC mines but they don't do anything with that problem. In fact, that should be the main objective of the White Fang since the very beginning: to rescue the slaves in the SDC mines. Blakes mention that the WF has been going for years but in the story they haven’t accomplished anything. Like I said, it’s just there, but narrative wise is like a cardboard.
Adam’s death is only the cherry of the cake. If your lore and character arc are hollow, the villain will reflect on that. And that’s what just happened.

Mental characteristics

Personal history

Alright, here is my fanfic version to make the Adam CS better:
-We begin with a first scene of a young maskless Adam in a sparring with Sienna he lose quite easily. Sienna said that while he is the most talented fighter she ever trained, he suffer from a deep fear of who he is and what he could do, precising how he never use his semblance once its charged and that this fear will one day make him and the one he care about in danger. Adam respond by saying he is not sure he can be this emotionless he need to be to fight with his all and Sienna then propose him to begin to wore a mask and act as he need to be, saying that it will mask his doubts from everyone, himself first, and only show what he want others to see. The scene end with Sienna reacting to the presence of a young Blake spying on them Hinata style and saying she want to learn to fight too and that Adam look like the young hero from her books, Adam having a amused smile on this. There is four main idea I want to give here : Adam and Sienna have a mentor-student relationship, Adam was not the bloodthirsty or emotionless character we knew but was a talented fighter, Pyrrha level. Adam was trained in every sense by Sienna since the beginning to fight and kill human opponents, not Grims and finally the beginning of his relationship with Blake was just a childish curiosity.
-The next scene begin by showing the rear of a transport truck with white fangs but without weapons or masks moving and the camera move back until we are inside the truck behind showing Sienna driving and Girrah as passenger. They are both discussing about this operation, the dialogue giving us these information : Girrah already stepped down as leader but keep participating and Sienna saying it's her duty even as a leader as there isn't many talented fighters in the WF if things turn sour. They end by saying their rear is quite silent and Sienna saying it's the first operation of one of them. We then see the interior rear where an older Adam playing with a totally white mask is trying to reassure a young Illiya about this just being an evacuation operation, from a distress signal send by a faunus camp , It's clear here that Illya is not fighting ready and just here to help, he try then to divert her attention by asking her what did she intend to gift to Blake for her 14th birthday. This is also here that Adam explain to one of the other faunus in the rear that his mask is to be feared by his opponents. Suddenly we hear an explosion and the transport suddenly stop. We get back to Girrah and Sienna and see that the other transport was the one who explode. Girrah and Sienna get out of the truck while ordaining the others to not move.
They have been attacked by bandits and Girrah recognize the voice of the leader as the one having communicated with them to ask for help, it was all a plot to bring to them materials and food and that Faunus dying wasn't a great loss. Girrah try to parley with them, saying that this violence was useless, they were here to help and the bandits responding that corpses are easier to steal from, engage then a battle with Girrah and Sienna working as a team with Sienna being the MVP of the scene. We cut back to the rear where they only hear the fight noises and Illya begin to panic, we see on Adam face he is pretty much in fear too. He finally seems to resign with a sigh and wear his mask. His fear instantly disappear and its with a emotionless voice he said to Illya to use her camouflage to stay hidden and that he is going to make sure nobody hurt them. He get out of the transport and begin to fight the bandits who had outflanked Girrah and Sienna, approaching the truck. He clearly don't use his sword, only hand to hand hits and his scabbard only showing some trace of a red blade when he absorb shots.He also privilege dodging over absorbing the hits. He almost got into slashing someone with it but hesitate and stop his attack. The bandit, him, don't and shotgun him at point blank. He absorb most of it but is knocked back. He get up and face his opponent again to see him aiming at the back of an auraless Sienna. He then use his semblance, the only thing he can do to try to stop him but it's already too late. The shot goes as the bandit is sliced in two. We don't see the bandit blood or Sienna wounds but only a tree falling from an distance. The bandits flee in the sight of this power, saying they are freaks and the scene end with Adam taking something on the ground and making a red line on his mask while we hear in the background Girrah saying they need to bring Sienna back to menagerie as fast as possible.

The next scene is a sparring of Illiya and Blake (around 15-16 years old) VS Adam which we can see wearing his mask with more red lines on it. He beat them pretty easily and began to discuss as they are taking a break. They are saying they don't see him much more without his mask anymore and that he is lucky to been in the good grace of Sienna to become the youngest commandant of the WF. He answer that his position is nothing out of luck or some boost but out of necessity. With Sienna being too crippled to take part in fights anymore and Girrah departure, he is the most skilled fighter of the WF and the only one who can command the operations of his team. Blake is quite unhappy Adam mentioned her father then said that his team's operations always seems to end with a high number of casualties in humans something her father couldn't accept anymore and she can't see herself doing either. Adam defend himself by saying his team was created to be send on operations confrontations were expected and while he is strong, he is not enough to take the risk of not giving his all and it is a mistake he won't do ever again. Blake seems quite compassionate about it and while Adam seems quite obvious to Blake emotions, we can see the envy in the eyes of Illyia. This scene also show that Blake isn't training in the goal of fighting with Adam in the first place but because its a good way to spend time with him. She change her mind and began to participate by compassion for him, trying to take some of his burden.

The next scene is the escape fight from the SDC with Blake replacing Sienna, The fight is going the exact same way only to change at the end. Adam mask is even more red than before, and he is openly letting his opponents open fire to absorb them, even if he make others in danger doing so. Adam is slashing without restrain while its Blake who is trying to just get her opponents out without killing. The scene end almost the same way, with Adam approaching a defenseless opponent with a smirk, his blade high. He is stopped by the fearful voice of Blake and hesitate, looking at her doubtful and fearing face. History seems to repeat itself as the soldier trust a dagger toward an unaware Adam but he never even graze him, a gunshot is heard and the dagger drop. It is Blake who have shot, and she is slowly realizing what she just done before Adam hug her, saying it's over before ordering everyone to get out, now.

-The next scene is Sienna congratulating Adam on this operation success and the information he get out of SDC database, already preparing attacks before they could change schedules. Adam then voice his doubts about what he is becoming, explaining how easy killing became since his first kill and seeing Blake like that after her first kill make him question his sanity, even more as he is becoming to like it. Sienna respond by saying to him he is like her and Blake isn't, he is on a path she herself have crossed before and will guide him. She then said to him that he is already to far into it to remove his mask anymore and she don't want him to. She end by saying that as long he keep fighting, he always will have a place on her side. Adam ask if as her assassin, and she answer with a playful giggle by kissing him.
-The next scene begin from the POV of Adam, on the throne, staring on his mask in his hand before looking at a blood stain on the rug, at the bottom of the steps, before starring back at his mask and saying with a voice full of regrets 'what have you done'. We then switch to the mask POV to see the face of Adam, While we recognize his features, his eyes are tearful and he have the dark circles of someone who didn't sleep well for years. He then said 'it's too late now' with resignation (not his emotionless voice) before we hear doors opening and the pov of the mask moving until we are on Adam POV. The scene play the same until the end.

Last scene is Adam fleeing who trip, hard, an his mask fall from his face and we see him hesitating to pick it up before saying with rage ''You did this to me, Sienna !!' before getting up and beginning again to run, his first step on the mask who broke in two. The scene end with a slow approach of the camera on the broken mask with the only sound are Adams steps rapidly getting away from there. END of the CS with a black screen and Adam real voice saying, 'this is who I am'.

“But Adam can’t have emotions or a backstory because he’s the evil abuser!” Your fanfic version makes much more sense in comparison to the RT version. Especially since Blake said Adam was her Mentor.
A relationship with Sienna also in my opinion is a much better one than the one with Blake as it layers Adam’s character, showing that he willing to kill his “Lover” in order to achieve his vision for the White Fang. Sure, Blake could’ve liked him but I think Adam would’ve been a much more fleshed out character if he saw her more in a student/Mentor relationship instead of the “Blake Harem” thing that’s shoved down our throats.
It's also show that his obsession with Blake is just him transposing his experience of mentor-student relationship he had with Sienna on the one he have with Blake, unable to understand Blake isn't devoted to him like he was I the first place to Sienna and understanding it at the end when himself betrayed her for his ideals.

Morality & Philosophy

In canon Sienna Khan says, “You have justified humanity’s campaign against us”, as if setting shops on fires, hijacking trains, kidnapping and killing people of and related to the Schnee Dust Company wasn’t justification enough.
"I want faunus to be feared by violence, except I don't want the violence to reinforce human stereotypes of us."- Sienna Khan in the canon show. Was Adam really wrong to get rid of a leader with such conflicting goals? I blame Ghira for appointing someone as incompetent as her to replace him.
Sienna Khan wasn’t morally grey. So recently I’ve been seeing on here this idea that Sienna Khan was the morally grey character people wanted out of Adam. I have never felt like this made sense at all.
Do people not remember when in volume 1 when Weiss described how a lot of people connected to her family and the SDC were either killed or just never seen again because of the White Fang (which would have been under Sienna’s control)? Political assassination isn’t morally grey, it’s just black. Just because Sienna had more of a code of ethics in regards to killing doesn’t make her grey, it just means she’s closer to lawful evil and chaotic. She was the leader of a terrorist group guys, seriously.
That’s still not a morally ambiguous action. A bad action done for a good cause doesn’t balance it out. I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense but that’s these actions aren’t grey.
White: What’s generally considered a morally good action, like helping the sick, rescuing people, etc
Black: Actions that are typically morally bad, like murder, torture, etc.
Grey: an action where the morality isn’t wholly clear in regards to what the ‘right’ answer is, due to the situation
That’s generally how I think of it
I can understand targeting people actively making the lives of Faunus horrible, but somehow I doubt every person the White Fang targeted from the SDC was actively tormenting their people.
Yeah that makes sense, but that can’t really be described as morally grey. The morality of terrorism isn’t exactly ambiguous, even if it’s for a good reason. I can understand why the White Fang has done these things but it doesn’t put them in a grey area, they just responded with the kinds of things they’ve been hit with.
"Whoever harms the innocent for the crimes of the guilty is a bastard." -Me.
Morally grey is just another term for morally ambiguous, which just means the morality of things isn’t clear. Political assassination isn’t ambiguous morally. Just because she has the villain has a “good goal” doesn’t make her bad actions grey.
A morally bad action isn’t balanced out for being for a good cause. It makes sense why it was done but it’s not really ambiguous. There is still certainly an argument to be had about whether the ends justifies the means though, if these bad actions are ultimately worth it if it accomplishes the goal, but that doesn’t put those actions in a grey area.
Morally ambiguous just means that the action in question doesn’t have a clear moral answer. That’s what it is, it’s not doing bad things for a good cause like you think it is. They don’t balance each other out or mix in each other.
Also, having morals and an ethical code doesn’t mean she’s not bad. Plenty of villains have codes of conduct, they’re called lawful evil. Plenty of villains do bad things for what they think is a good goal.
And I’m looking at her methods because it’s really the only proper look into her, since she’s only in a single episode and has a handful of lines. And her methods are morally black. The terrorism to inspire fear in humanity so they won’t mess with the Faunus and political assassinations make sense, but just because it’s for a good cause doesn’t balance her out as grey. I don’t know what else to tell you but I don’t think we’re going to be changing the others mind on this.
Im repeating that redundant point cuz ur repeating a similar thing of how having these black and white aspects of her makes her grey when it doesn’t.
And I have never put Sienna’s actions on the same level as characters like Adam or Cinder or Salem. However just because she’s not as bad as them doesn’t mean she isn’t bad.
And to be honest, I don’t think she can be a morally ambiguous character because she is barely a character. She shows up in one episode, you get that she’s not as extreme as Adam, and then she is killed. The “she used to be peaceful but realized she had to change” is literally speculation. That could be true but she also always could have been of a more violent mindset. We know nothing about her beyond what we’ve seen in that episode and of the White Fang’s prior actions and so we need to judge her character based on that. And the actions we see and hear about in the forefront are terroristic activities, raids, and assassinations. She isn’t the morally grey revolutionary because the show never attempts to make it seem like that’s what the White Fang and her are. She is a terrorist leader with a code of conduct, that’s it.
This is the last thing I’m saying on this
Just because mixing the colors black and white together makes grey doesn’t mean that the same thing applies with actions and intentions (which were only attributing color to because of the grey thing to show them as extremes).
And I don’t consider moral ambiguity to mean true neutral, it just means the morality of something is not exactly clear.
And I have seen the Adam short, and a big thing I remember is the smug look she gives Ghira after she turns the situation of Adam killing a guy into a good thing. That read to me as her power grab, undermining the High Leader’s authority to bring in the extremism. I do believe she cared about the Faunus, but I also think she had some personal ambitions to be the one leading it too.
This seems like it’s coming down to differing views on what moral ambiguity is and our own views of what we’ve seen of Sienna. You see her as a morally grey character for the reasons you’ve already stated. I see her as a lawful evil character, doing bad things but possessed a code of conduct. Considering how long this argument has been going on we both seem pretty firm in our opinions. I don’t personally agree with you, but I can respect your opinion at least.
So to answer your last question to hopefully move on to a different conversation, the only character I really consider to be more morally grey but ultimately still being good would be Ozpin. Ozpin’s goal is ultimately the continuation of humanity and to protect them from Salem. This goal has led Ozpin to make several morally ambiguous decisions. A good example would be the lie about how Lionheart had died a hero as opposed to having been a traitor. It raises the question of whether it’s better to hide a bad truth in order to maintain the peace or to reveal everything regardless of how the populace might react to it. It’s not a clear cut thing. Another decision that I think was on the grey side was getting Pyrrha to become the next Fall maiden. You can understand why he’s doing it and why it’s necessary that these powers don’t fall into the wrong hands, but at the same time this is not only questionable in regards to putting major pressure on her, but also going forward with it despite the potential risk factor. There’s no right or wrong answer here, just a hard decision that needed to be made.
I think a lot of people, me included, are just rather bitter about how hard Sienna got shafted as a character, basically just being a glorified extra, when she'd have been a far more interesting rival to Blake than Adam ended up being.
If Adam had more screen time I think his arc would have been stronger and made him a better counter to Blake. But I do see your point on feeling bitter. The White Fang plot line had been handled really badly and ultimately I think they decided to just get it taken care of to focus on the main plot. The White Fang plotline wasn’t really about Faunus discrimination but about Blake’s development in the end too. It seems like Faunus discrimination will actually be a focus in Atlas since we ended volume 6 with a brand to the face so that’s good at least. The real villain of RWBY is lack of screen time honestly.
No, u/JonMycroft is correct. Describing a character as morally grey is the same as moral ambiguity, or saying that their moral status is questionable or unclear.
Sienna Kahn wanted humans to fear the Faunus (the definition of a terrorist) and actively took drastic steps to achieve that goal, including the mention in Volume 1 of the assassination of important SDC figures. Sienna's morality is not in question here; her slightly more ethical approach over that of Adam - ie, disagreeing over the Fall of Beacon - does not change that.
You’re misstating what I’m saying. Violence is morally neutral, it can go either way depending on the situation. Terrorism and political assassinations are both morally black actions. It being for a good cause doesn’t shift it from black to grey.
Like I said before, violence itself is morally neutral, it depends on the context of the situation. There is certainly an argument to be had about if and when killing is necessary, but I don’t think the White Fang or Sienna represent that question from what we see in the show.
No, it wasn't, and yes, I'm aware the ANC had an armed wing. I'm arguing using the actual definition of terrorism here, which is using fear as a means to an end.
Terrorism: n. the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
Which Sienna and the White Fang on the whole fulfill. Assassinating SDC board members (civilians), arson with intent (as mentioned by Blake, Volume 1 Chapter 16), the Breach, etc.
She may have drawn the line at Beacon because she didn't want a war, but that doesn't mean she's morally grey. That means she has some semblance of a line she won't cross.
Like I get people liking villains, hell I really like villains, it just annoys me that this weird narrative has formed, like because she has a cool design she can’t be bad, despite most of the villains having cool designs. It also annoys me people don’t seem to get that doing bad things but having a good goal isn’t what being morally grey is
B-But she has ears.
But she’s Waifu Terrorist-Chan she can't be really bad
She more or less was one of the main factors responsible for Adam's fall to darkness. An aggressive leader who wanted respect through fear? Straight up reprimanded Ghira when he was lecturing Adam how killing was bad? If you ask me, it's likely that Sienna let Adam get away with everything he did aside the Fall of Beason, because she actually approved of his methods
I imagine she wanted him to be like her, but she didn’t realize how emotionally damaged he was which caused him to spiral out of her control. Sometimes the students get more extreme than who they learned it from
Exactly. She approved of his actions and failed to recognize how unstable he had become and how ambitious he was. I'll be honest, she had her death coming and it was rather ironic
Yeah she did. She radicalized her people and then was caught of guard cuz her protege went beyond radical
We can at least judge the actions of her White Fang, which still included terrorism and political assassinations

Wealth & Financial state

Menagerie - The stage - Why it does not work: Greetings. Today i wanted to talk about menagerie, as a stage and why in my opinion it did not work. But first of all, let us analyse what a stage is. To preface it, i actually liked V4, i saw that it was not really too bad and there were many good things about it (Mainly, character interactions), the plot moved forward while giving us these things.
THE STAGE When referring to a stage in this post i will mean - The scenery, the background, the setting. All of the things that make up the place that we see characters interact with. For example, Volume 5 most popular stage for team RNJR would be the house in Haven.
The stage as a concept comes from drama - Shows that are specifically designed to be performed visually before people.
And here we come to the last part that is important, the stage acts not only as a place for characters to interact with, but also has other uses. The main use of a stage, is to portray a message or accentuate what is happening with the actors. Example, if you have a romantic scene, the stage should be something that helps to portray that, for example, a moonlit pier, maybe a date on an outlook (If we modernize it). If you have a scene that is supposed to be dramatic, then i doubt it would happen in a stage that is designed to be like a circus, it doesn't fit.
A stage has to work together with the scene to create an image, a feeling. This applies to more than just drama. Other genres of writing also employ this technique, for example, Harry Potter, where Grimmauld place is a very depressing and a dreary stage and of course, scenes that happen there, also share the same qualities besides a few exceptions.
Of course, now that i mentioned exceptions, it has to be said. A scene can not match the setting on PURPOSE to create a different feeling. For example, let's put Mr Bean inside a war zone, it doesn't sound like it fits, does it? Well, actually, it does, the ridiculousness of it is what makes it work. A nonsensical comedic character being in a war zone creates comedy through contrast.
Something simmilar can be employed for the sake of horror too. The "uncanny valley" effect, something that causes anxiousness and has that feeling of "wrong" due to contrast. A great example of this would be a great town in Fallout 3 universe where everything seems to be alright and returned to pre-war standarts. Spoiler alert: They are all cannibals.
Other movies have used the contrast to create such feelings. Now that we got the basics out of the way, i want to come to the main topic itself, Menagerie, and why i think it does not work due to conflicts and unintended contrast between scenes/words and of course, the stage.
MENAGERIE We know that Menagerie is a land given to the faunus after the great war, together with equal rights. After some time, it is said that the kingdoms wanted to centralize the faunus population there in an attempt of segregation, which fails due to the faunus revolution. The story of menagerie is clear.
The problem is its portrayal in the show. We see menagerie in V4E5, when Blake and Sun finally reach it. The problems stem from the contrast of what is said and what is shown to us from the very beggining. Blake and Sun both state about how "crowded" the place is, yet what is shown to us, is nothing out of the ordinary, the docks with a marketplace would obiviously be "crowded", it is no indication of the island, this continues to the panning shot of Menagerie in 3:20 timestamp. It does not look crowded. Look, i live in a city, a small one considering the population of it. What is shown us in that wide shot is not crowded, the buildings are not taking up much space, there are many trees and free space there, the ammount of faunus we see is not really out of the bounds of what we would expect. This supposedly "crowded" place, is less crowded than the city i live in, which is quite riddiculous.
This continues on to Blake being offended when Sun remarks that this place is "cool". She proceeds to say that this is an example of them being treated unequally, that they are still second class citizens. "Instead, we were being given an island, and were told to make due". Now, im not going to say that it was not a dick move by the kingdoms to do the things they did. But Blake tries to portray as if they were given an island that was barren, "we were told to make due", as if they were forced to be there (Before you bring up the relocation, it failed). Yet all we can see is a tropical paradise. This very much touches on the point of "Well, most of the island is a dangerous desert" part. The problem with that is that we never see it. Any shots we get are of a tropical paradise, when showing that, it is hard to take the "Yea, this looks amazing, but the rest looks bad, believe me" point. Seeing is believing. What is being told does not coincide with what we are constantly shown.
The scene at 3:48 of the episode also seems very strange and, well, not fiting. All around you see people, happy, with clean, well made clothes, going around their days, before we saw a crowded market with full market stalls, yet now we are shown what is supposed to be a poor kid getting a donation by the kindly bunny rabbit. Both are happy, smiling, clean clothes, clean bodies. It just doesnt fit. Blake constantly states about how this island is the example of inequality of humans and faunus, about how life here isnt good, yet we always see happy people with seemingly no problems around. Well built houses, clean well made clothes, fully stocked marketplaces, hell, even the beggars are happy! The contrast between the positivity we are shown and the negativity we are told is quite ridiculous in my opinion. This is especially a point of contention to me because they do it right later in the show with the portrayal of Nora in Episode 10, a dirty scared girl who just wants to survive. She does not look happy at all!
We also find out in the same episode that the White Fang has a presence in menagerie, and they even have representatives in their own council. This reveal however, feels a bit muted due to the fact, that we do not see their actual presence visually in other places. We see no white fang uniforms, no flags, nothing that even says (Hey, i support the WF!). It just does not fit. If something has a presence in an area, we should see that presence, if not the people, then at the very least the effects of said presence. Yet instead, we do not see that. We do not see some maybe wandering soldiers of the WF, we do not see people showing open support to them. We are simply told that they have a presence, yet dont see any of it. Them being on the council, means that they are accepted, and do not need to hide like in the kingdoms. We are of course, told that they do not wear masks in menagerie, that is fair, but i do think that there would be some kind of indication by the people still supporting the WF. Sorry for including real life, but you do not need to wear a trump hat to still show that you support Trump. It is especially strange when Ghira comes up to give his speech in V5E3, as his speech does not seem to garner ANY negative attention besides Iliya, there do not seem to be WF supporters there or radicals that would question him, that would shout over him, again, besides Iliya alone.
Everything we seem to be told about menagerie is not what we are shown. That is a big problem. And yes, i know that time and budget are limited things, but we cannot ignore details like these. Even the smallest of details can matter because they make up a greater whole.
I find this a problem because CRWBY has show that i can do stages right! In Volume 4 almost every scene where bad things happen or fights happen is portrayed in a dark light, the stages are specifically chosen to be dark, in dusk, less illuminated, less bright. This brings the sense of foreboding in my opinion and is a good setting for a fight, this would not work with the bright pallete of Volumes 1-3. Everything seems more muted in these scenes, and it is for a good reason.
Or take Blakes reconsiliation with her parents. Yet again, well done and the stage chosen is their own home, Ghiras office, the blacony, different parts of the house, they give this a good setting because of its close nature and of course, familiarity, imagine these scenes being done in a open field somewhere, doesnt seem to fit right?
Yet the portrayal of the island itself is lacking, and i know it could have been done better. But of course, i should probably give ideas as to what should have been done.
IDEAS For better portrayal of these things, scenes should have been constructed differently i feel.
Overcrowding - There should not be a lot of free ground shown, everything should be covered in buildings, roads and possibly even farmsteads that produce food.
Being shown the actual desert. Remember when sun exclaims what is the problem? The desert is basically livable land? Instead of telling, that would have been the perfect moment for them to go there, to show some people working hard there, maybe farming, maybe extracting resources, but most importantly showing the expanse of the desert, or even better, show some kind of infirmary near the desert and people hurt by animals or poison (Coz its australia). To portray that it IS dangerous out there, yet people NEED to work there to survive.
Instead of stocked stores and full marketplace, have someone from Atlas or other kingdoms come as traders and show them going as far as ripping off the people on the island (Have it said/explained by Blake/Sun who lived in the cities and know the prices). To show that menagerie is dependant on resources from the mainland (Because island countries have a tendency to be like that), such as dust or electronics,
People should also look dirtier, more ragged, not like they just came off the new summer collection. Im not saying to make them into bums, but show them as working people, sweat, dirt, clothes getting ripped is a daily occurance in heavier, more menial jobs.
While people can be happy it should not be literally everyone, there should be sadness shown, less fortunate Faunus that are supported by others, maybe those who have suffered from racism, veterans of the faunus revolution. Things like that.
There are many details that could have been included in the background or while Sun and Blake talked about things while just standing around or sitting around in stages that do not fit what they are talking about.
BEST ILLUSTRATION OF THE PROBLEM ​
Best example of this is in V5E5, where they discuss Blake and Adam, the unwillingness of people to help Haven, and they do it in an equivalent of an island resort while drinking cocktails. To me that scene was COMPLETELY tone deaf and did not fit anything they were discussing. It was like a comedy skit depending on irony, yet was not intended as so.
It reminded me of this.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhdu81 - WARNING, link contains what can be considered dark comedy and contains allusions to sexual acts and a NSFW scene in the end. MINUTE 15+ IS THE SCENE WITH NSFW CONTENT!
For those not in the know, this show is called Nasha Rasha (Our Russia), it is a comedy show consisting of a set of characters in comedic skits. The skits i provided are of two politicians Mamonov and Pronin of a fictional town in Russia.
For those not understanding Russian, the things said in the video are repeated in a certain manner in all of the skits.
Mamonov exclaims that Pronin is such a hard worker for thinking about Russia all the time and should take a rest because of his overworking. Pronin retorts that he has no time to rest because he thinks so hard about problems that plague Russia while noone else will. Mamonov calls Pronin a "Golden person", a unique hard working hero of the people that everyone should see as an example. This then causes Pronin to always go on a tirade about how bad things are in Russia, the themes about this change, sometimes the skit is about Pensioneers, the other times its about the general public morals and so on. The comedy comes from the clash between the stage and the words being said. While they are talking about how hard it is for Pensioneers because they receive barely any money, they are gambling with thousands of dollars. When talking about Public morality and how it is falling, they are doing so while watching striptease. When talking about corruption, they specifically are engaging in an act of corruption themselves.
The contrast is made for the sake of comedy. How these rich politicians talk about serious problems while being pampered and living like kings.
The scene in V5E5 eerily reminded me of this skit in how much what they were talking about and what is shown clashed. Yet it was not intentional, it was not done for the sake of comedy. It felt extremelly tone deaf for them to do so.
EXPECTATION The reason i am trying to portray this problem and what i feel about it is because it still comes up, especially with the Atlas outpost and Cordovin in V6, which felt extremelly out of place in the story and themes that were being explored there. And because we are moving to Atlas, a new city that will be portrayed, and i want it to be done well, for it to match what was and is said about it. I hope that such problems can be avoided in the future. Because the background details and of course, stages do matter.
For anyone who managed to read this much (You are a bloody hero), I hope i have made my opinion and why i think so clear.
This will be crossposted to the main RWBY subreddit in hopes of facilitating a more active discussion. I would like everyone to be civil even if disagreements arise.
For the main RWBY subreddit, this comes from the r/RWBYcritics, we are a newly formed subreddit with the intention of a rational and civil discourse over the show, its successes and negatives, as well as many other things. We do not want to turn our corner into a circlejerk, so we would appreciate more people with the intent and wishes to discuss the show to join us. Please keep it civil everyone.
While the title of a "critic" has become a negative word these days, we hope to turn this around with civil discussion and disagreements.
Very well said, friend, and unfortunately I don't have too much I can add.
For me personally, anything to do with the White Fang has been tone deaf and doesn't paint Blake in the best light. Most of her troubles she brings on herself, and it honestly does feel like she looks for the worst in every situation. Menagerie like you said is a tropical paradise and it would appear relatively safe as well. The marketplaces are full of both food and people (meaning there's plenty to eat at an affordable price), and while everything is made of simple materials they also look to be in good shape (which either means they're replaced often or Grimm attacks are rare). Where you find civilization you'll also find homelessness and poverty, but everyone appears to be relatively well-off in Menagerie, even the poor.
The other kingdoms/territories have combat schools and huntsmen academies, but Menagerie doesn't. It doesn't even seem to have a regulated militia, or anything but "primitive" (though effective) weapons for that matter. I'm glad you used Nora as an example as I feel like her backstory fit Blake's better than Blake's actually did. Replace Blake with Nora, Menagerie with Kuroyuri, and perhaps tweak Adam and Ren, and I think the story is a lot better off if Blake had been given Nora's backstory with a few more layers added between her and Adam. Or just have Blake be selfish and impossible to please ;)
Again great stuff, friend. I know the other sub doesn't seem to like the word "potential" at the moment, but there is something to be said about expectations not resembling reality, and what's said not being what we see. And if you compare Nora/Ren with Blake, I personally think the former fit Blake's story better than her own did. That's just me though.
(I heard about this sub from a friend and thought I'd give it a shot)
(edit: Also just wanted to point out the lack of crime in Menagerie, minus the White Fang of course. If things are so bad there, crime should be bad as well, but as you pointed out even the beggars smile genuinely in Menagerie)
God bless, and have a wonderful day :)
(Use the bolded part in my fanfic, where RWY make assumptions that Blake lead a hard life based on what Blake says, but when they see Blake’s homeland they are understandably flabbergasted over how nice it is and when they see Blake’s stable homelife they grill into Blake over how pretentious she’s been.)

Character Prototype

Sienna Khan is modeled after book!Euron, who’s a cult-leader on steroids, to put it mildly.